Joey Graziadei the Italian-American man that you are š©š®š¹š
Reflecting on The Bachelor with Sofi of Little Treats
This week I am pleased to have Sofi Chavez of Little Treats join me for a chat about the best Bachelor season we have had in ages.
Aneliza Ruiz: Can I just say that it feels so great to be reunited with you in this Google Doc? I have been watching this season of The Bachelor quietly, keeping my thoughts to myself (except that one time I took to Instagram to announce that Joey Grazadie, my Italian-American Prince, made my āThe Best Men We Haveā list), which is simply not what God intended when he created the people who created this show.Ā
Sofi Chavez: Oh my gosh I know. As you know I had never watched any Bachelor content until Golden Bach, and I originally had no intention of watching The Bachelor. As a lesbian I was just likeā¦why? But then I kept seeing TikToks of the womenāparticularly Greek-Canadian icon Mariaāand I was like okayā¦maybe I tune in for the women.
AR: YES!!! Literally the women are what make the Bachelor interesting. I think itās why seasons of the Bachelorette are generally watched less and tend to have smaller budgets, because the men are not that interesting.Ā
That said, I have some thoughts on the season a bit more broadly, but of course, I want to get into what you picked up on watching the last third of the season.Ā
First, I think what is so striking to me about this season is just how heavy everyoneās trauma is.
SC: Yes I was shook by this and I was like damnā¦is it always this heavy? Someone lost a mom, someone lost her hearing, someone almost died as a babyā¦
AR: No, this was a lot. Famously, coveted one-on-one dates are the time for contestants to share the deeper or more meaningful experiences that shape a personās approach to life and love. Historically, the usual trauma(s) are bad break-ups, experiences of being cheated on, or really never experiencing love at all. In the past few years, weāve seen a shift where contestants are talking more about struggling with mental health issues like depression and eating disorders and weāve gotten hints of racial trauma. But this season, I feel like the women were really so forward and honest about the major traumas theyāve faced like Daisy losing her hearing and being incredibly ill, Kelsey T. being estranged from her father, and Jennās parentsā painful and maybe abusive divorce. The women were not holding back or sugarcoating what theyād been through.Ā
SC: It feels like therapy-speak has really gone mainstream just with the level of trauma-literacy and expression on a show like The Bachelor. This is a shift that weāre seeing in pop music too with Ariana Grande, for example, using lyrics like ācodependencyā in songs that land on Billboard Hot 100.
AR: 1000% I agree. You donāt know this and they havenāt done this date in a while but for a few years a recurring group date (like once a season) was a big group therapy session led by someone else in Bachelor Nation by which I mean not a licensed therapist!!! Anyway, generally, Iām always in awe of peopleās vulnerability, but damn, these women bared their souls in such a way that made me really consider if this is how we should all be dating. Like, should I be telling everyone I date about all my baggage up front?Ā
SC: Honestly Iām likeā¦is lesbian culture going mainstream? You know that stereotype (which is in my experience, true) that lesbians trauma-dump on the first date. Itās efficient, in a way.
AR: It seems like an efficient way to just get the hard stuff done first, and I think, as we saw with Lexi, who self-eliminated because she knew she wanted to get married and start a family immediately because of her severe endometriosis, it actually just spells out the reality of whatās needed. Watching Joey take in all this information and really respond well made me realize that this unconventional approach also works to reveal things about your partner too. Joey was really good about validating struggle and always found a way to reflect a positive back to the woman he was speaking to. For example, with Kelsey (his now fiancĆ©), when she told him her Mom died very suddenly a couple of years ago, he made it a point to note how strong and special she is and how proud he knows her mom would be of her. Thatās actually a dream response. Because the truth of telling our trauma is not just about sharing the hard stuff and how thatās impacted our boundaries and fears but also conveying how that stuff helped us grow and made us better. I would want a partner who knows how to look for that and is gonna see that Iām strong or resilient or hard-working or whatever because of the things Iāve endured and survived. You know what I mean?Ā
SC: Yes and it also makes me think about another thing Iāve noticed on TikTok (this is my algorithm, so grain of salt) where women who date men are saying, āI wonāt date men unless theyāve been to therapy.ā Iām not sure if Joey has been to therapy but when people say Joey is the ābest Bachelor everā I think part of it is the fact that he does seem like he was written by a woman because of his level of emotional maturity.
AR:Ā OMG, He does seem written by a woman, and more specifically, ME. And whilst weāre on the topic of Joey, my Italian-American Prince, Iām really curious to hear your thoughts on him as a Bachelor as opposed to Gerry. Because I think while Gerry ultimately landed on a sour note with you, he was generally beloved in a way that Joey is too. And as an avid watcher, I donāt remember the last time we had a Bachelor as great as him. Joey ticks nearly every single hot guy box I have, but I think aside from that, he just has the most neutral personality without being boring. He has a warmth to him that feels honest and familiar and is goofy in a way that isnāt embarrassing or forced and I think he has a healthy sense of confidence that is well grounded in reality. I think I heard this on a podcast, but someone described Joey as a guy you would genuinely want to date or would want to set your friend up with. But Iām undeniably in love with him so maybe Iām not the right person to speak on this.Ā
SC: I found Joey to be a lot more authentic than Gerry, in hindsight. I think women who date men responded to that balance in Joey which you mentioned where heās neutral without being boring. It makes me think about another internet archetype, the āWife Guy.ā Like Zendayaās boyfriend, Tom Holland. (And I say it that way because I believe he wants to be introduced that way). The internet LOVES Tom Holland because he will just post photos of Zendaya to his Instagram grid on a random Tuesday afternoonāor like that video of him following her around at the Renaissance Tour and recording her like a one-man documentary crew. And Iām honestly relieved that hopefully weāre moving into an era of the boyfriend as a supporting character, because Iām sick of the ānice guys finish lastā attitude that is so tired but persists in the culture. Letās cultivate models of masculinity that are grounded in a kind of nurturing care, which is what I think women respond to in men like Joey and Tom. Ā
AR: LISTEENNNNNNNNNN Yes. One thousand times yes. I think men, and particularly younger millennials and Gen-Z men came of age at a really crucial inflection point in masculinity and sexuality discourse. Because we had the Appatow leading man ā the like schleppy but nice and good hearted guy āĀ and also proper grown man sex symbols (or maybe just sex symbol adjacent) a lĆ” Brad Pitt and the Pussy Posse. And I imagine that the range between sets up really interesting possibilities for men. But of course we then get #MeToo and a larger political awakening around sexual violence and feminism, and I think that moment (letās say 2016 - 2019) left a majority of men feeling really lost and confused about wanting to be āgood guysā and liking some aspects of the masculinity they grew up indoctrinated in and/or aspiring toward. Dating is for sure where this all comes to a head. I think there is a growing group of men who are choosing women they can follow because that alleviates a lot of the pressure of making their own decisions and making a mistake. Plus it works out because those women end up leading really great lives that those men can benefit from. Tom Holland following Zendaya around at the Renaissance Tour or that other time she took him to West Oakland Middle School is the best thing that could ever happen to him. And I think he would agree. He doesnāt want to be running the streets. He wants to be running toward her when she needs/wants him. Thereās security in that. Which I think is what men like Tom and Joey are realizing and I think in turn provides a kind of security for women too.Ā
I like the way you framed your response as Joey representing an archetype, because that is how all reality TV functions ā by focusing on strangers we recognize through archetypes. But Iād be curious to hear how you read the archetypes the women represent.Ā
SC: Well to our earlier comments about how the women were very trauma-forward, it felt notable to me that the women were actively going through huge life transitions. Daisy recently became disabled and Kelsey recently lost her mom to cancer. Thatās heavy shit for our engenues. And true engeneues (in narrative mediums) typically lack complexity. Iād be interested to see if this is going to be a trend in the casting for the franchise, and I wouldnāt be surprised if it was because of the proliferation of therapy-speak in our daily lives now.
In terms of the archetypes, itās hard to make clear distinctions because every single woman is thin, conventionally attractive, and as far as I know were all straight (at least in the final four). Rachel definitely felt to me like the ādown-to-earthā one. I saw her post a TikTok about how people were criticizing her hair for always being up in a bun and she was saying that she just wasnāt good at hair and make up like all the other girls. And likeā¦that did feel like some of the most variation we got. Which is I think because they simply donāt cast outside the āgirl next doorā archetype ā itās only recently that more women of color have made it to the final four as far as I can tell, none of the women are even heavily tattooedā¦I guess sometimes we get a mom or something. I hate to reduce archetype to race, body type, and sexuality but to me those categories typically distinguish archetypes for women. To be honest, it also seems like the women this season turned on Maria because she was the one who differentiated herself the most in terms of self-styling. Most of the contestants style their hair and clothes in the same way, but Maria wore vintage clothes, and the most āRevenge Dressā type dresses to the Rose Ceremonies.Ā
AR: LOL I canāt even imagine a heavily tattooed woman on the show unless they were like a bunch of small little dianty tattoos. But I think the point about Rachel is an interesting one because she did have the least āpageant girlā look and I think the criticisms against her appearance are also racially coded given the anti-Black and anti-Asian messages sheās received. With Maria, I think itās interesting because she definitely dresses the most sex forward and has the biggest personality which also goes against a kind of pageant queen or girl next door type the show usually goes for. Arguably, that Maria isnāt that kind of girl is why so many viewers like her, but I think for fellow contestants, it probably feels annoying because these are generally the kinds of women who believe the polite thing to do always is be quiet. Itās good to have people like Maria to help stir up drama, but intellectually I think itās a good way to really see/think about how women respond to and understand women that are outside the usual realms of palatability.Ā
SC: There were several points in the last few episodes where I needed to ask you to give not just context for the season (since I only joined in the last four episodes) but also for the franchise as a whole. One of the biggest ātwistsā came in the finale when Daisy has a gut feeling that Joey isnāt going to choose her, and is going to propose to Kelsey. Daisy goes to Kelseyās room in a move that seemed unprecedented to ask her how confident Kelsey was feeling ahead of the proposal. The two women then ride in the limo together to the proposal podium. And I had to ask you, has this ever happened??
AR: Yeah that was really surprising. Jesse Palmer is always like āwhat youāre about to see has never happened in Bachelor History beforeā and when I hear that I always think āyeah yeah yeah O-KAYā but I did genuinely gasp when I saw them in the car together because that truly has never happened before.
SC: I texted you as I was watching because it felt like a shift in the gender and power dynamics (which it seems the show then capitalized on as a āgirl powerā moment). As a Bachelor historian, do you see this as a meaningful shift? 22 years in, it seems like they are trying to update in some ways, and are somewhat self-aware that the women are in a precarious position on the Bachelor when a man has all the agency. What would you like to see in the future of the franchise?
AR: I think thatās a great question. No, itās definitely not a meaningful shift. That was a choice Daisy made, and one I think that was very mature and responsible, but that was her choice not what the usual directive of the show would have her do. I think itās great that they were able to spin it as a āgirl powerā moment because you are right that the show is aware of how sexist it is but not every woman would make the choice she made. Again, thatās part of the benefit and gamble of producing reality tv ā you never really know what decisions people will make. But that said, I think where the show is trying to adapt is by being better about who they pick to participate.Ā
I think since Matt James, the first Black Bachelor, they have really been trying to pick leads that represent the kinds of change we as a somewhat more liberal society claim we want. The following Bachelorette was Katie, whoās thing was being goofy and sex-positive. But when both seasons kinda flopped, they went back to picking classic White Guys with Clayton and Zac. Claytonās season was messy and I didnāt watch Zac because I didnāt care to, which is true of a lot of viewers. While picking Joey maybe wasnāt a gamble, I do feel like he did have a big task because if one more white guy flopped that was gonna be the end of their run and the show would definitely not know where to go from there (because I donāt know when they will have a Man of Color lead again). I think Joeyās honestly triumphant season will lead to Joey-types becoming the new white guy archetype as opposed to the former NFL player they usually go for. And I think with them picking Jen, who will be the first Asian American Bachelorette, they are thinking more about racial diversity.Ā
Personally, in this next season I am hoping to see more Asian men as contestants. They are horribly underrepresented on the show and the few that do make it on usually donāt make it far. (Justice for Pardeep and shoutout my man Ethan Kang and his little moosestache) I want to see Asian men be desired. I want to see this girl Jenn be loved and celebrated. And I also am very hopeful we will dig more into her being first gen and an immigrant daughter. What are you hoping for friend?Ā
SC: Well Iām honestly really excited because it will be my first time watching The Bachelorette and Jenn looks like a Disney Princess in a very sweet and not annoying way. I think the āgazeā is interesting in the Bachelor franchise because itās deeply heterosexual always. I imagine for women who date cis-men the Bachelorette is fun because you imagine yourself as Jenn, choosing between the men, and I guess for lesbian viewers you imagine Jenn as your ideal match. So Iām excited to see how the fantasy feels as a viewer. I would *love* to see some interracial dating play out, and it would be really great to see an Asian man go far. We didnāt really hear much of Joeyās backstory on this season, so I hope Jenn gets more time to be vulnerable and share equally with the men, and I would love if the men were as articulate and vulnerable as the women were this seasonā¦not sure how likely that is but Iām reaching for the moon here!
I also am willing to bet $5 that one of the men introduces himself in Vietnamese or something to try to endear himself to Jenn. I would love that.Ā
If youāre interested in reading more of my thoughts on the Bachelor, consider buying a digital copy of my zine, Agony Hour No.2: The Final Rose Tonight. It includes an essay, a spotlight on a group organizing for fat inclusion on the show, and an interview with former Bachelor Clayton Echard.